013 - Andy Fillmore | Building Halifax: Balancing Growth, the Housing Crisis and Heritage

Breakhouse [peaceful music] Welcome to Design Makes Everything Better, a podcast about design as a process for making decisions and succeeding. Now, here's your host, Vince. Vince So Your Worship, thank you for joining us today at Design Makes Everything Better. Andy Happy to be with you, Vincent. Vince Um, how do you want me to refer to you? I know- Andy Andy is my name and that's- Vince I've known [laughs] you for so many years as Andy. Andy [laughs] They say there's no sweeter sound to someone than the sound of their own names. Vince Oh, right. Okay. Andy So I'm sure Andy's great. [laughs] Vince Okay, Andy. Thank you. Um, it's been a long time trying to get this, uh, to happen. Um, I've been hoping to do it for a long time. And then, uh, I know that you're hard to get a hold of. You got a very busy schedule, so again, I really appreciate you sitting down here with me to talk about the housing crisis. Andy I am honored that you would choose me, so thank you. Vince Uh, I've known you for quite some time now, but I never really took the time to look into your history. Took a little dive into wiki and all of that, uh, Wikipedia. And I was really amazed to see how much, um, experience you have in planning before I knew you were running, uh, HRM- Andy By Design. Vince ... By Design. Andy Yeah. Vince Thank you very much. Um, so you began your career in Boston- Andy Yeah Vince ... as an urban planner, right? And this is after studying architecture first and then you moved into urban planning, is that right? Andy That's right, yeah. Undergrad in architecture and a graduate degree from, uh, in planning both from the Faculty of Architecture and Planning right here at, uh, what's now Dalhousie. Vince Right. Andy Yeah. Vince And then you founded your own architecture and planning firm. Andy Yes. Vince ArrowStreet? Andy I didn't found Arrow- I worked at ArrowStreet- Vince Oh, you worked at ArrowStreet? Andy ... for quite a while. Uh, then, uh, that was in Boston. And a few years after that I moved to Maine, uh, to become a town planner for a small rural town called Cumberland. Vince Right. Andy Uh, and then after that I opened my own consultancy, sole- Vince Okay Andy ... sole proprietorship, uh, in, uh, planning and d- and design, so land use planning and architectural design. And, um, although not a licensed architect, I- Vince Right Andy ... you know, help people out with their, their dreams and, uh, yeah. It was good experience to be... to run a business. Vince And then you went to director of school planning at Dal. Andy Yeah. It's been a good, full career and I, I've loved every moment of it, honestly. Vince So, uh, you know, I can't think of somebody really in a better position to have the insight in the housing crisis, as well as your time as an MP, nine years, um, for Halifax. And working in sectors of economic development, and planning and development as an MP. So I'd imagine that you've got a relatively, you know, larger context for the challenge itself. A lot of people even say my position, that're working in development and other urban planners. I think for some of our listeners who might not be familiar with Halifax itself, maybe you could just describe, uh, Halifax to somebody who doesn't know it. Andy Yeah. That's one of my favorite things. Vince Or HRM, I should say. Sorry. Andy I, I love giving introductions to, uh, to... Well, HRM, the Halifax Regional Municipality, I'll tell you, uh, when I... quicks little story about HRM. When I was living in, in Maine, uh, one of my neighbors became good friends with, um, uh... had friends in, in Halifax and he s- he, uh, he heard me refer to... Uh, I think when I moved back home here and my... the signature of my email had said HRM in it, he wrote me back and said, "I just, I love Canada. You even, you even sign your emails with 'Her Royal Majesty'," you know? Vince [laughs] Andy [laughs] Anyway, HRM is not Her Royal Majesty in this context. It's Halifax Regional Municipality. Um, and, you know, we had a big question in, in our city about, uh, a decade ago about should we be HRM or should we be Halifax? Vince Mm-hmm. Andy And I think the answer was Halifax, although, uh, legally sometimes we still have to call it HRM in documents and the like, but that strong identity of a city like Halifax, uh, is important. We have to be able to be a- around the other side of the globe and say, "Halifax," and know- people will know what that is- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... and they'll never know what HRM is. So, so what is Halifax? Coming back to your question. We just broke 500,000. We're a cosmopolitan, 21st century capital city, the capital of our, of our province of Nova Scotia. We, uh... Halifax is the seat of the provincial government. Uh, it's the seat of municipal government. Um, we have a broad array of sectors here from, uh, Canadian Armed Forces, with both Navy, Air Force and Army installations here. We're building the future of Canada's Navy on the... um, in Halifax Harbor as we speak. Uh, we have hospitals. We've got a tech sector. We've got an ocean sector. We've got, um, aerospace and defense. Uh, we've got an incredible vibrant art scene, indie art scene, music, uh, visual arts, recorded, uh, arts. Um, this... it's, uh, really a city that is, uh, unlike any other, I believe, in the world. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy We just have something for everybody here. And I'll just... maybe the last thing I'll say and not be too long-winded. When I was in parliament and, um, would talk to my colleagues from around the country about their ridings, it became clear very quickly that there was no federal riding like Halifax that had really a little bit of everything in it. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy And those are the things I just, I just listed. You know, some colleagues in Ontario, their entire riding might have been, uh, eight, eight square blocks comprised entirely of enormous apartment buildings and some convenience stores. That was their riding. Compare that to what Halifax is. Vince Yeah. Andy Absolutely remarkable. Suburban, urban, rural- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... uh, across the socioeconomic spectrum. Uh, it's incredible. Vince So, uh, in the variety of different, um, uh, qualities that we have, um, is there a unique, uh, or specific challenge that we face with the housing crisis that maybe is unique to other-... cities across the country? Andy Yeah, a couple things come to mind. It's a great question. And, you know, it's- it's good to be unique. I would say we wanna be unique in the good ways, not necessarily unique in the, in the- the negative ways. Um, we're unique because of our geography. Um, if one were to look at a, at a map or an aerial photograph of the municipality, but I'm gonna, like, maybe focus just on the- the urban core of- of the- of the cities of Halifax and Dartmouth for the moment. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Um, we are a harbor town. We, uh, you know, our land mass is, uh, very much cut up by the- the Halifax Harbor, the Northwest Arm, um, by, uh, significant river systems, the Sackville River System, uh, a lot of protected land. Uh, we're very lucky that we have some fairly large parks and- and, uh, protective parkland near the urban core as well. When you- when you, uh, take all those things out of the equation of where can we build and where can we have connectivity with transit and roads between the places we can build, um, it's really quite a... what's left is, like, quite a filigree. There's- there's, uh, a w- it's not like we're in a prairie town where we can just keep on building the grid out, uh, indiscriminately- Vince Yeah Andy ... and, uh, westward or northward forever. We- we just can't do that. We're- we're bound, uh, by the- the topographical features of our city. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy So that's one thing. It- it makes it, uh- Vince Yeah Andy ... you know, we have to- we have to be really smart about how do we build and where we build, both ecologically and in terms of density. So there's that. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Um, the other thing that's maybe unique in the, um, in the more challenging way is, uh, Halifax has been an outlier in Canada in terms of how hard it is to get development approved to get a home built. And that is something that I spoke a lot about in the, uh, uh, municipal campaign last summer when I was vying to become mayor. Um, and- and v- uh, very focused, laser focus on solving this problem at our city, uh, so that we can build the, uh, build out the housing supply that we need- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... at all the- at all the price points that we need. And that's- Vince Right Andy ... a rich- rich territory to get into. We could talk more about it if you like. Vince Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, uh, why would you say that it's so challenging for us to build housing then? Like, what's the difference that we can have that other cities don't? Andy Yeah. I- I think it comes down to, uh, institutional memory. Now, I was a city planner. You referenced the HRM By Design project. I was a city planner at the city for a little over seven years, so I- I lived in that environment. Um, and when I started to do the HRM By Design work, uh, you know, perfectly frankly, I... uh, colleagues, my new colleagues w- were telling me things like, "This is pie in the sky. You'll- you'll never be able to, you know, uh-" Vince Move the needle. Andy Move the needle, bridge peace between pro-growth and pro-heritage, uh, factions in the city. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Um, a lot of, "We don't do it that way here." You know, all the standard things that you- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... you think of, uh, when- when you think about making change in a large- large organization. Well, we were able to make those changes, and we really- really did move the needle on it with the downtown plan and some other things. Um, so that's- that's a good news story 'cause it shows you that change is possible. Um, we need to make a- those kind of changes again now. Um, there is still an institutional memory. Um, uh, and in fact, I was in a conversation with- with somebody today who called it, uh, a- an entitlement, that there might be a sense of entitlement on the part of the municipal administration to, um, be overly involved and o- o- too much of an impediment, slowing down approvals too much. They... you know, for all the right reasons, you know, uh, we've... they might feel that they have, um, like, a- a moral obligation to protect the neighborhood character or- or the environment or whatever it might be, and all that's true, but we can't do that, um, uh, in- in such an extreme manner when there's a housing crisis, when there are looming economic storm clouds, uh, on the horizon. We just need to- to sort of step up to the level of other Canadian cities in terms of how we can turn out, uh, houses, uh, at- at the pace we need to, and we're not there yet. Vince Yeah. No, there- there's some really great examples of other cities, you know, some in the States that I can think of. I wouldn't mind talking about it a little later about how they've been able to increase the housing supply so quickly- Andy Yeah Vince ... and make a really big difference in terms of what is a total housing count. So, like, what- what would you describe as the difference between what we would say is a housing crisis versus affordability crisis, you know? If we're slow to build, that would ultimately say that there's a reduced supply and demand. So that supply needs to go up to meet the demand, so therefore reducing the cost. So until that happens, which I guess is tied more specifically to the speed at which we can build, and there's another number of other things, but how do we adjust to the current situation if we can't build faster? Is it that we have an affordability crisis more so than a housing crisis, would you say? Andy Oh, well, there's- there's clearly a- a housing crisis across the spectrum of the- of the housing spectrum. So we- we... yes. Uh, and then I'll- I'll say within that, there is a crisis at the affordability end of that spectrum, of that housing continuum. Um, so it's a broader housing crisis that contains within it an affordable housing crisis. Um, but the- the- the truth is that there is housing stock in Halifax that would be ideal, um, and, uh, for folks who can only spend, uh, a certain amount on their rent, so more affordable housing, but that stock is tied up. Why? Because the people that might be ready to percolate up the housing continuum into the next place, there is no next place because we have... in some of our neighborhoods, we have two months of housing supply... sorry, two weeks of housing supply in the- in the MLS system. In other words, realtors have- have no- no, uh, supply to work with. Um, uh, so this is a serious problem, so we stagnated. The- the housing continuum should be a conveyor belt, where people are... you know, I- I explain it to people like, if you- if you take an ice cube tray and start pouring water in one end, um, imagine that's the- the- the affordable end of the housing spectrum, you keep on pouring the water in, and maybe the water are people in this example, and that water overflows and goes into the next, uh, compartment in the ice cube tray- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... and then that fills up and it goes to the next. That's what happens with the housing continuum. You need to keep it moving so that people can percolate upward into the next bigger apartment that they want. Maybe they get rid of the- the three-bedroom apartment, and they move to a townhome. After a few years in the townhome, they've got it together enough, they're ready to go buy that single family home somewhere. Um, but if they... if- if none of those, uh, more senior options are available, those bigger, more expensive options are available because of the housing shortage- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... then they're gonna be staying in that low-cost unit, and then where do the folks that- that- that need- that really need the low-cost unit go? Vince Right. Andy So this is the core of the problem that we're facing here. Um, so my focus is... and- and my job here is to-... is to get that conveyor belt moving again, to start to approve low-cost land, uh, where we can build, uh, h- uh, houses, um, in an ecologically responsible way, to remove barriers to low-cost housing, uh, construction techniques, like factory built and, and mass timber. And I'd love to talk about mass timber. Um, and to fix the, um, the speed at which, uh, mixed-use and major developments, multi-res developments are approved. Because those three things, speed of a- approvals, cost of land, uh, cost of construction are the three main drivers of cost in the housing. And the, and the municipality has an, a lever on all three of those. We get that conveyor belt going again, then suddenly, that's gonna open up the housing stock that is down in the 1,100 a month, 950 a month range, 'cause those people are gonna percolate up and the people that need the low cost can percolate in. But right now, there's stagnation because there's nowhere for anybody to go. Vince Yeah. Yeah. So [clears throat] in terms of maybe the first of those three then, the speed, the best scenario that I heard, an example was, um, Austin, Texas, and, uh, uh, Minnesota as well had a very similar parallel of success. Both cases in 2021, during COVID, both saw an increase in rental rates to the order of magnitude of 25% increase across the board. Austin in particular, given the restrictions that everybody had during COVID, was a real destination of interest for young families and, uh, young graduates. There was a lot of opportunities for business. There's a major tech sector there. And the demand became so significant that, again, the rents just kept on going up and up and the housing supply for those looking for a home purchase, right, those in investment scenarios, it became very difficult. And then the really interesting response to that was the mayor and policy makers reduced a lot of the restrictions that would come with housing and building, so they would just an- an- and really focus on reducing any of the restrictions towards lot sizes, so they reduced the scale, or the size of a minimum lot. Uh, they lessened the restrictions on building height. They really shored up their, uh, staffing, so there were a lot more people that were working for the planning department and the development department. And by, this is the crazy statistic, by '23 up to this year, '24, they built 50,000 units. And the duration of time from the, for the average developer to buy a piece of land and have heads and beds was two years. And we're... This isn't just a single-family home. Like, these are larger-scale developments. And as a result of increasing the housing stock by, in the neighbourhood of about 14%, they reduced rents by 22%. Andy Supply and demand. Vince Supply and demand. And as a result of increasing speed, so really loosening up the restrictions. Andy Yeah. Vince And that was by, um, you know, the, the leadership within the municipality that enabled that to happen. And I know that you have a lot of people that you're working with, so you're not the only one making a decision here. So- Andy Yeah Vince ... um, it gets really difficult when you have other people that you're working with, but you also have local residents. The- the- the NIMBY pushback that you get from homeowners is significant, and they really reduce a great deal of opportunity for development and opportunities on the peninsula and other more dense cores. So these things have solutions. The- this- this problem of the housing crisis, and then therefore, supply and demand resulting in affordability has a way ahead. So what, what do you think it would take before we could get- Andy I don't know Vince ... the different parties aligned so that we can all start to support this, this, this challenge- Andy Yeah, it, it- Vince ... and seek some of these solutions? Andy What a good question, and, uh, you, you were talking about St. Louis and Austin, American cities, and American cities, uh, operate under, uh, something called a strong mayor system. So a strong mayor would be able to i- issue, uh, you know, direct or give orders basically, uh, to, um, to a, a department to change a business, a business practice, for example, speed up, uh, permits- Vince Mm-hmm. Andy ... um, and, and, and so forth. So that's a, that's a huge power, and, uh, uh, would be very helpful in a, for a city facing a crisis like we're, like we're facing. Um, we're not the only one. Um- Vince So just, just so I understand, in, in the American system, they would have a strong mayor which essentially has the ability to veto anybody's counterdecision or independently make a decision to say, "We are gonna change these bylaws and zoning." Andy Yeah, I wouldn't, I don't like, the, uh- Vince I might be getting some of the terminology wrong. Andy Strong mayor powers are, are kind of like, uh, you know, what is a hamburger? It can be so many different things- Vince Yeah Andy ... uh, and have so many different things attached to it and, and, in between the buns, but, um, what, uh, what, what it would mean here is that those of us that are elected by the people to represent the people- Vince Yeah Andy ... would have, uh, those of us in the council chamber, the mayor and the councillors, would have more direct authority to direct the, uh, administration-... to meet the challenges that have been articulated to the elected people by the people that elected them. Vince Right. Andy You know what I mean? So we're putting... It's like, it's like strengthening democracy. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Um, I don't, I don't even like the phrase, um, strong mayor power. I would, I like to think of it as accountable mayor powers, um, because it puts the voice of the people back into the de- the decider's chair. We have a weak mayor system here. The ma- I've got one vote on a council of, of 16. I'm the 17th vote. Vince Yeah. Andy Um, uh, and I have the power to convene and to cajole, um, and to bring really... bring good ideas, what I hope are really good ideas, and inspire people. But at the end of the day, I can't direct anybody, um, unlike in St. Louis and, and Austin, so. Vince Right. Andy So that means the work that we... That, that just means there's a little bit more work to get- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... to the good solutions. And that's the work that I'm undertaking. And I don't... I hope this isn't... I'm not sounding like, like a... It's not a complaint. Um, it's just, you know, what's the expression? I have to, uh, I have to plow the field with the horses I have. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Andy Uh, so. Vince Sure. Yeah. Andy So we're figuring it out. Um, but I- Vince So- Andy ... I really... Like, my intention is in this... You know, at the beginning of a, of a new mayor's term or a new, a new premier's term, whatever it is, is a time to make some big changes, you know, get those changes underway. So we, we just got through our budget cycle, which was kind of all-consuming, um, and we walked into that right from the election. So now the budget's behind us, I'm gonna be turning my mind to solving some of these big, uh- uh, how to plow the field with the horses I have. Vince Right. Right. Um, and would you say with the rest of the councilors that, um... Is there, generally speaking, a, a bit of a theme or maybe a, a general point of view with areas in different districts? Because HRM is so large, right? It has so many different areas, um, vil- towns and so on that are all a part of HRM. And, you know, what we might hear about in terms of, say, Nimby in the peninsula, you know, is coming maybe from a smaller number of single family homeowners that, you know, have some connections, have some leverage, maybe have some money that they can engage a property lawyer and they can have a loud voice. But that might not actually be a voice that is representative of the general population. Andy Yep. Vince So maybe a councilor in that case would then be speaking of, in say Bedford, maybe the voice of a few very strong individuals, which is, I- I think, naturally a state of politics- Andy Yeah Vince ... right? So I'm not saying that we're in any way unique in that regard, but is, is the system itself problematic in terms of making... Like is the structure that's in place really the thing that's preventing us from creating some real resolve in the housing crisis? Andy [sighs]. Vince Like, should there be, like, a general vote of what would you imagine happening in your backyard? Is this acceptable? Could you... Could your neighbour in Bedford... So say everybody is in R1 zone, which means you're only allowed one, uh, tenant or homeowner per lot. Turns into three. Andy Yeah. Vince So you can go to an R3. Andy Yeah. Vince And this is, I think one of the things that they also did in Austin. And then that... You, you can almost triple the housing count within every single lot. Well, tha- that means you can, but like tho- these things can make a significant difference. So is there, is there another way of bypassing some of the structure that's in place that's maybe preventing this from happening? Andy F- fascinating, and we could talk about this for a long time. So, you know, here in Halifax... Well, across Canada, there was something created by the, uh, by the last federal, uh, government called the Housing Accelerator Fund. And, uh- Vince Yeah Andy ... they made a lot of, uh, uh, front page paper, uh, uh, column space in here in Halifax. Um, and that's exactly what it was. It, it said to cities, "We're gonna create this multi-billion dollar fund. And if you can commit to us that you're going to..." For example, I'll, I'll use shorthand, but get rid of R1 zoning and allow accessory suites, um, uh, broadly, um, then we'll give you a bunch of money so you can hire some extra planners, um, improve your processes, maybe do some... build some online permitting that'll... that's more efficient, things like that. So Halifax said yes to that. Um, that money came with a very short deadline to, to meet the, uh, meet the requirements of the federal program, which meant that public engagement had to be abridged. And, uh, which made communities of people in certain areas that were primarily affected quite unhappy with the sort of the, the pace of change and the quantum of change that be suddenly became possible in their neighborhood that up until, you know... that one day it was R1 and the next day it was, okay, now you can have four units on every lot and go to four stories. That's a m- m- Vince Massive Andy ... huge change. And it's character... uh, it's character changing. Um, and, you know, you asked at the beginning of this, what, what is Halifax and what do people need to know about it? We are, uh, you know, we're a Victorian city that is also a, a 21st cosmopolitan, uh, uh, 21st century cosmopolitan city. Um, we do have beautiful Victorian neighborhoods that draw people here. People make locational choices to live here, bring their families here because of the, the housing stock that we have. And there is absolutely a way that we can densify and respond to the housing crisis, build the homes and the, and the apartments that we need to build, that protects the character of neighborhoods and drives the, the ch- growth and change to corridors and to opportunity sites throughout the city. Old malls, brownfield sites, par- uh, parking lots that maybe we don't need as much anymore. So I worried about... quite a bit about the Housing Accelerator Fund because of the level of change in stable, uh, neighborhoods that define the character, not just of that neighborhood, but of our city. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy It's really like who we are- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... where we have these incredible neighborhoods. So we wi- I, I wanna be sure that we protect those, those neighborhoods, uh, and when we build, we build in a way that is, um, building for everybody. So there- Vince Yeah Andy ... there's a affordability- Vince Yeah Andy ... as well. Vince Yeah. I, I totally hear you there. And I...You know, as an architect, as somebody who's... I built a career around creating things that I would say are around beauty- Andy Yeah Vince ... and connecting businesses to built environments. And they can be beautiful and that is a weapon, right? That can help businesses and people and streets and make things, make a city more livable, right? So I- I'm really... I was always really torn between these two almost opposites, which is, 'cause maybe there is a space in between, but it's almost an opposite where you see the way that Austin has approached this, which is let's let development go the way that economics will allow it to go. Which means if you have a piece of land and if you can develop it, you build whatever you want and you can build it as large as you want. You can densify. And on the other end, you have, uh, you know, if I think of a lot of European, um, cities and beautiful areas, even in Toronto, as well as Halifax, of course, and other areas across the country, where there is a really beautiful fabric on the street that if we see that removed like we've seen in some parts of Halifax here on Young Street, some beautiful homes that are just demolished, or they just appear like they have a clicking clock that is running outta time- Andy Yeah, yeah Vince ... and it's only, uh, a little while before it gets demolished. And so the other side is doing what we can to keep that fabric in place, but it doesn't work towards accelerating our housing needs. And so- Andy Yeah Vince ... I don't want to destroy the beauty of our streets. Like, I- I- I walk to work because I like- Andy Yeah Vince ... to see the streets and see the people on the streets, and you create a sense of community. And a lot of these American cities where they can build quite comfortably are not necessarily... Austin maybe is a little bit of a- of an outlier 'cause it is so beautiful, but I don't know. What- what- are we- are we striving here for that middle ground where we can keep the fabric that we love but build dense, but can we do it quickly enough? Like, what- what- Andy Uh, uh, so- Vince Where- where are we right now then? Andy That's exactly the balance, Vincent. You- I think you've nailed it. Um, so I- I believe in... I believe that R1 zoning should disappear. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy I don't necessarily believe that it should be replaced with, let's call it R4 zoning, that we just, uh, that we just talked about. Vince Yeah. Andy The four units and four stories everywhere. Um, uh, right now, there are homes, uh, throughout the ha- peninsula of Halifax, throughout Dartmouth, throughout Clayton Park, Sackville, uh, Fairview, uh, Bedford, everywhere, that, um, that are single family homes that, uh, should be allowed to have an accessory suite. A granny flat or a basement flat or a something o- something over the garage, whatever it is. Um, and, and f- f- that does two things. Suddenly, that brings an income stream into the household so a s- a family starting up could actually afford to buy a single family home because they've got the suite, th- the income from the suite. It also allows someone who maybe their families all moved out and their spouse died, and they're alone, and they have three bedrooms, and they don't need that, and they have trouble paying for it 'cause they're on a fixed income. Well, all of a sudden they can build th- the suite in the basement or the attic, and they can live there, and they can rent the- the house to a- a young family. And then the financial equation makes sense again. So the... when I talk about the stable neighborhoods, that's what I think we need in the stable neighborhoods. That's apart from the corridors. You mentioned... I think you meant to say Young Avenue, but- Vince Oh, yeah. Pardon me. Yes, I did. Andy But, um- Vince Yeah, Young Avenue. Andy But, uh, I'll stay with Young Street 'cause Young Street very much is a- is a corridor. Robie Street's a corridor, Portland Street, Main Street in Dartmouth. Um, this is where there is transit, where there are amenities like shops, um, a place to buy a sandwich, place to take your dry cleaning, uh, your doctor's office, that kinda thing. Um, a- a- a ni- nice mixed use communities along these corridors. That's the place. Quinpool Road. That's the place where we really need to be doing the more observable density, um, the audacious density even. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Andy Um, and those big opportunity sites like the Canada Post lands up on Almond Street and Kempt Road will be the next frontier for- for Halifax for- for- for big neighborhood builds. So I think we absolutely can do this in a way that maintains the quality of the neighborhoods in Halifax, that balances the economic playing field so that families can live in those- those traditional homes while at the same time really- really building out the density along the corridors. And, uh, I- I should have also said, and it's not just- I'm not just talking about the urban core, there are suburban nodes as well that are all set up for densification. You know, when a- when an arterial road crosses a circumferential highway and there's a grocery store and a transit stop there, man, build the housing there. Build the, uh, build the towers there. Build the, uh, the mid-rise, missing middle housing, whatever it is, um, at those locations 'cause then people are connected and- Vince Yeah Andy ... the amenities are already there. It's like reinforcing success where, where i- is a good model, is a good way to go, a good operating principle. Wherever there is already infrastructure that you don't have to build anew at great cost- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... and ecological disruption, focus the growth and change there. Vince Yeah. Yeah. And that- that's where I think densifying existing neighborhoods from R1 to R4 is a really good transition because you have all of the infrastructure. Andy Yeah. Vince There's an existing community, and, um, I just... I have a hard time seeing those changes happen as quickly as they need to versus doing it in the areas that you're talking about- Andy Yeah Vince ... which, um- Andy Mm-hmm Vince ... can make a significant impact to a housing quantity. Andy Well, I- if I could give you an example. So on paper, the changes resulting from the Housing Accelerator Fund, the zoning changes, the, uh, the four stories- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... four units and others- other changes like that, on paper, that created- created, I'll call them notionally, uh, notional units, 350,000 notional housing units. Um-... are any... have any of those begun to be built? I don't think so. Vince I'm not aware of any. Andy I- I- I think they're just on paper. Vince Yeah. Andy And so the answer is no, we're not gonna get there by doing that. Vince Yep. Andy Um, we're gonna get to it by, uh, by getting that conveyor belt, that housing continuum and cont- conveyor belt moving again by building, uh, new homes in appropriate locations where there's infrastructure on corridors- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... on opportunity sites, um, uh, to get people percolating up through that system again. Vince Yeah. The- there- there's really a misalignment, um, from... and I guess this comes back to a NIMBY belief system, but there is really a misalignment when the opportunities exist, but nobody wants to see the- the change. And we like to see it happen on areas that, um, you know, currently aren't considered areas for residential development, um, because they are large parking lots, there are car dealerships and so on, which could eventually change, but- Andy Yeah Vince ... um, it- it- it is a significant point of view, which is, uh, very much, um, opposite from where I think some people believe housing should be, meaning there's a difference between housing as a public right and housing as an investment and as an in- individual ownership. Andy Mm-hmm. Vince I think both need to exist, but when we see a lot of people saying that they don't wanna have these changes in their own area, they, at the same time, I suspect, would not disagree that housing is a... is a right, it is public right, but so long as it's not my neighborhood, as so long as it's not the house across the street. Um, you know, there's... for example, we're doing a development, uh, in the north end, uh, which is St. Andrew Cob Church. We're doing a- a- a residential tower- Andy Mm-hmm Vince ... behind the church, and we're gonna be renovating the church possibly to have, uh, additional rental apartments inside, or it might remain as a public, um, uh, you know, a privately run, um, performance space. But this residential component at the back of the church is large, like, it's significant. It's a 12-story building that's the back of the church that is neighboring on both sides with a single family home, and I would never say that there would be no impact to the people who live in the area, but everybody is... not everybody, there is some pushback because this is a big change to their own experience of their street. Andy Yeah. Vince Right? And... but at the same time, we have to make these changes in areas that are within the existing core to save some of the existing fabric, like that church. Andy Yeah. Vince The only way that church can be saved is if there's a big building behind it, right? Andy Yeah. You get the lift from the new building and it saves the church. Yeah. Vince So I- I- I just... the... I guess what I'm getting to is that the conversation around the developer being the- the- the- the hungry profit-driven, uh, bearer of bad development is the opposition to what needs to happen in the city, but at the same time, we need to support developers like this if we wanna see a change in the housing situation. So- Andy This is, uh... yeah, you're absolutely right. Um, I... there- there are two areas of friction you've identified there. The first is, um, the rate of change in existing neighborhoods creates opposition. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Creates opposition to density in the exact moment when we all collectively need to be focused on densification, so this is not helpful. So some of those- some of those, um, someone called it doing surgery with a chainsaw kind of policy moves that, uh, that are well intended, but then- but then create a blowback against densification are just not helpful. So I... had I been doing it, uh, when it all happened, I would've kept it to our two in the- in the established neighborhoods and driven the density to the corridors. I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but that's the- Vince Mm-hmm. That's all right. Andy That's the- that's the urban structure model that, um, that works in, uh, around the world, um, and will work here too. Uh, the other... the second thing, the area of friction that you've raised is this pushback against developers. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Um, developers are evil, what- what have you. I... like, a couple of things on that. Eh, develop... people who are developers have been building our city for 300 years. Vince Yeah. Andy Like that... our city gets built because people put their personal, uh, time at stake, their personal capital at stake, and they go out and they do things. Vince Yeah. Andy They build our city. So I have great regard for- for our city builders. In this economic climate with... when interest rates blew up, when supply chain caused everything to be expensive, um, with... well, uh, you know, the- the cost of everything changed, and that has to be borne somewhere. And it went... it... if you were a landlord, it had to go on the rent because, uh, you know, energy didn't get cheaper and the garbage collection didn't get cheaper. The taxes didn't go down. Everything got more expensive. And- and developers and builders and landlords aren't- aren't, uh, not-for-profits that are being supported by government. They're not. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy They're businesses that will fail. And if they fail, those housing units are lost. So I think we need to, like, remember that. And what happened in this climate is people... people's, uh, sense of the lack of affordability of life got directed, I would say, misdirected maybe to- to the development industry. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andy Um, so we've gotta- we've gotta crack that open and- and make sure that, uh, we are giving builders the tools they need, the- the approval processes they need, the- the low-cost land they need, the, uh, the ability to build, uh, innovative construction techniques, like mass timber, that they need, all of which bring down the cost of housing in the end. So we're gonna solve this... the not-for-profit sector is- is not in a position to solve the housing crisis. It's people who know how to build buildings that are gonna solve it. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, with that said, like, there...The province, in the context of supported housing, if it's affordable or- or other versions thereof have, I think it was 515 units scheduled to be built, whether or not it's this year or within the next few years. Uh, that- that is so... a- and I mean this with respect, but it- that doesn't even make a difference, really. Andy Yeah. Vince And so then that- that sits in the question of where does a municipality step up and say, uh, "We are going to own and operate more housing and make a significant investment." Paris, for example, has made massive contributions towards increasing their housing supply by purchasing buildings that are up for sale, and they've made it a policy that they will, uh, be right of first refusal to an accepted offer. So they're actually coming in... so there's a third party, so somebody says, "I will buy that building." Andy Mm-hmm. Vince This six-story building, say it's got 10 units in it, the city will say, "Okay, we'll buy it for that price," and they will be able to take it. And their intention is to own 44% or 45% of housing in Paris and they are buying some really difficult pieces of property, so the- it's, uh, it's not just like, you know, buying a hotel and then filling it with people. This- th- there are some real development requirements- Andy Yeah Vince ... but that sort of- Andy [clears throat] Vince ... effort and motivation is- is really remarkable and I can't see it happening any other way if the city is not making it easy to speed up the process development and the only other alternative is if they're actually doing it themselves. Andy Yeah. Vince So what do you see as an opportunity in a municipality that's, you know, not the- the provincial housing control, but the municipality's control? Is there any ability for that to happen to a significant degree to move the needle in any way? Andy [inhales deeply] So one of the... we had 17 mayoral candidates in the last, uh, in the recent election, and- and one of the candidates in the platform included, uh, uh, the municipality taking on responsibility for the actual provision of bricks and mortar affordable housing units. Um, that's- that's not the reality we live in, uh, in our- in our constitutional monarchy. Uh, the- the constitution is super clear on the division of responsibilities between three orders of government, and, you know, when you start to have this conversation, people can begin to think, oh, y- you're- you're bootin' it down the road, y- y- you're putting it on another order of government, but the whole system works when everybody focuses on their mandate. And I will say that the, um, the municipality has strayed out of its mandate in a number of ways in recent years, um, into, uh, uh, really important things that people need and that- that have actually helped people, but that are- that are, uh, plainly out of mandate, like getting into nutrition, getting into, um, housing affordability. Um, those are both very plainly, uh, provincial areas of- of jurisdiction. And what it means is when we expend resources, m- money, uh, taxpayer dollars- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... and staff on those things, what aren't we doing? We're not meeting the basic needs of the... of- of service delivery that HRM taxpayers are actually paying their taxes for. And it means we're- we're instead using the municipal tax dollars to pay for things that the provincial government should be doing. So I- I, um, am very focused on bringing HRM back to mandate, but at the same time working with the provincial government to make sure the things that- uh, that we're gonna push ge- get out of our mandate that shouldn't be there go firmly into the mandate... the- the provincial government where the mandate belongs. So m- what I wanna do is in partnership with the provincial government, um, identify, um, uh, in fact a public... even something like a public call for landlords or building owners when a unit becomes available of... an existing unit becomes available, enter a program co-managed by the city and the municipality... uh, city and the provincial government, rather, that that unit now becomes an affordable unit, uh, b- with provincial funding. Uh, the city even has some funding we can put in there. We have a thing called the density bonusing fund, you're- you're probably aware of it- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... that is largely, uh, spent by giving grants for low-cost housing. So we're in a good place to- to start a- a system like that. And why is that so important? Why is it important that- that the provincial government do what it does and we do what we do? Um, for one thing, the provincial government already has the staff, the departments, the mandate, the budget, uh, they- they have people on payroll who are professionals and understand how to place people into affordable units, checking T4 slips, um, all the- all the things you need to do to make sure that they are the right tenant for that- for that spot. Vince Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Andy And then it lets us be freed up to do the things that we're meant to be doing, which is approving construction, finding low-cost land to build houses on and, uh, uh, allowing people to build, uh, low-cost modular and- and- and timber frame homes. So when we can all work together like that, uh, we get- we get a much better, uh, a much better outcome. Vince Mm-hmm. And do you feel that outside of maybe some instances where, you know, the municipality has stepped outside of their mandate and their comfort zone in- in a way, how does the province look at where housing should be? How do they... like, how do they work with you and- and councilors to-... to, to find out what the solutions are- Andy Yeah Vince ... and where to build. Like, how, how does that work? Andy So, so that, that's the partnership model that I just described. So we have a thing called the, the, the Regional Plan- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... the 25-year regional growth plan that's r- on a rolling basis, updated every five years. Um, w- though that's based on deep community consultation, it's based on principles of, of connectivity and of ecological preservation. Like, those are good documents. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Um, so if in partnership with the provincial government, we can, we can make sure that they're building in those places, building schools that will support homes in those places 'cause the, the province decides where schools are built, then we're, uh... I think we're, we're doing a good, doing a good thing. Uh, geez, I had one other thing I was gonna throw into the pile. I'm just, uh... it'll come to me- Vince That's okay [laughs] Andy ... as we keep going. Yeah. Vince Yeah, it's such a multifaceted challenge here. And I know that, you know, outside of, um, the, the speed, um, you, you'd mentioned a few other things, but we, we've kind of brought up a, a couple other examples. One is building techniques. Andy Yeah. Vince Um, you know, there's the offsite modular building and then timber frame. Andy Yeah. Vince Um, you've mentioned both of those a few times. Um, uh, how have you seen changes in those methods of construction, um- Andy Yeah Vince ... and where do you see that happening? Andy [laughs] Vince Um, where do you see it going? Andy Yeah. So let's talk about the trades for a minute 'cause it's a way to talk about that as well as, as well as the technicalities. So the building trades in, uh, Nova Scotia and in Halifax are... we're about to face a wave of retirements. There's, there's the most productive cohort of our tradespeople are, are gonna be retiring in the next 3 to 12 years- Vince Oof Andy ... and there are not the students at community college coming in behind them to, to fill. So this is a serious problem. So how can we, how can we make the work more attractive? How can we, uh, draw more people to think about joining the building, uh, the building and associated trades? One thing is what if instead of taking on a, a career where you're swinging a hammer outside in the hailstorm, um, from 8:00 in the morning till, till 4:00 in the afternoon, uh, wearing a safety harness and uncomfortable gloves and all that- Vince That's tough work Andy ... tough work- Vince Really, really tough Andy ... tough, tough work, how about we're, we're building the home components in a factory, a warm, climate-controlled, well-lit factory that's safe, that is... that can run three eight-hour shifts a day- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... around the clock seven days a week- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... um, and just churn out, uh, flat-packed or prefab houses? Vince Yeah. Andy The efficiencies are so tremendous and the pleasure of working in such an environment is so much greater, um, that that is a real, a real opportunity that, that, um, that is within our grasp right now. You, you probably are familiar with the, um, Auburn Drive, uh, townhomes that were built in, uh, as a partnership between Clayton Developments and the YWCA. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Those were all flat-pack built or modular built in a factory. And the factory where they were built could be running three shifts a day, seven days a week, 21 shifts a week, and they're running, like f- I think the number was like five or six shifts a week because there's no demand for them because there are policy barriers. So, so, uh, my, it's my goal to... as part of this fix to getting the conveyor belt going again is to identify and remove the barriers. You know, for example, modular homes, um, in, in many of the bylaws in HRM need to be... c- can only be approved if they sit on a full-poured foundation. Vince Yeah. Andy Well, that's... you just added f- what? $40,000- Vince Yeah Andy ... to the price of the home. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Uh, why not put it on a slab on grade or on screw- Vince Yep Andy ... screw jacks? So- Vince Yeah. Yeah. Andy Um, we can do... we can do those things differently and better. So there are- Vince Those are re- really easy solutions. Andy And another great one... Uh, it's good solutions, right? They're within reach. Another one is, uh, is mass timber and we're, we're starting to have serious conversations now. It was a lot of dreaming I think up until now, but you may have heard that there is a, a mass timber factory getting off the ground in Nova Scotia- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... that's gonna be ready to supply components, um, building components that... What a great time in the current, uh, buy local, uh, environment, right? Vince Yeah. Andy So we're do- Vince Yeah. Andy We're not gonna have to buy building components from, from, uh, anywhere but in, in Nova Scotia, made from Nova Scotia grown trees, Nova Scotian labor, for Nova Scotian homes. Like it's... what a great story. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andy Um, so there, there are some policy barriers to those that are... uh, even in the Central Plan, a, a fairly modern piece of, uh, policy, um, has some unintended, unintentional barriers to mass timber that we need to get out of the way. Vince Yep. Yep. And, uh, also to modular construction, it is on average about 20 to 30% more cost-effective. Like, you can save a significant amount of money and... You know, those little changes in how we build and what we need to include in a development makes all the difference in terms of, um, what the overall cost is. So like, uh, even like... uh, people don't think about it and I'm kinda jumping around a little bit here, but like an average parking space underground costs a developer between $50,000 and $80,000 because... not because of the walls of that parking space, 'cause it's just paint- Andy Yeah Vince ... but to build underground, especially here, when you have to blow out all the rock, um, it gets, it gets really expensive. Andy Hold groundwater back. Yeah. Vince Right. Really. Andy All those things. Yeah. Vince Well, that's why you see in so many places in the US, um, parking is on the second floor and third and fourth, right? Andy Yeah. Yeah. Vince So you get these really blank facades on the street. So, you know, and, and I know there has been an effort to reduce minimum parking requirements within a site, which all goes towards making a development more cost-effective. Um, so... Andy Anything to change the, the math and the proforma, the, the- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... you know, the spreadsheet that calculates the final rent or mortgage, uh, on a- Vince Yeah Andy ... on a, on a new build. I'm told that right now the, the per-square-foot cost and y- and you, you would know better than most, uh, in N- in Halifax is around $311 square f- uh, dollars per square foot. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy $311 per, per square foot. I mean, in our lifetimes that was you, you... like you were building a golden palace- Vince Yeah Andy ... for that price. Vince Yeah. Andy And, and you're not. You're building a basic, uh, stick-frame home right now. Vince Mm-hmm. Andy So as you said, if we can knock 30% off that cost, that brings that down to just, just over $200 a square foot. That changes the ballgame entirely. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Andy A- and then imagine putting that on, um, on some of the land that, uh, uh, that exists in HRM that has been identified in our regional plan for future growth, uh, but, but hasn't been activated yet- Vince Mm-hmm Andy ... that would reduce the land cost substantially. Vince Yeah. Andy Then, then we can knock that to- we can knock that price down even further on a per square foot basis when we get into real, real affordability. Vince Yeah. Andy Um, so there, there are just so e- so many elements to this. And you know, we all probably get tired of people when we talk about the housing challenge. There are no s- there's no silver bullet, there's no one solution. Well, it's true- Vince Yeah Andy ... there are, there are a thousand little things that we can be doing. Some of them are easy, some of them are harder but we need to be doing all of them. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think, uh, I still come back to, and I don't want to go through repeating all of that, but I... The, one of the big silver bullets, not the one that solves all the problem is, is the speed. Like, if you can do what we see in other states- Andy Yeah Vince ... right? In the, in, uh, in, um, in Austin, for example. Like that just changed it in a year and a bit. And, you know, I know we have projected, I think, 79,000 units of housing, uh, in deficit projected by 27, which is astronomical. It is so astronomical. So, you know, to coming back to some of the [clears throat] elements of cost. Um, you know, I see an opportunity by, uh, provincial and federal government to offer land just outright, make it available. I know that the YWCA, Maya, I don't know if you're familiar with- Andy Yeah. Uh, yep, I do. Vince Yeah. She's, uh, Mia? Andy Mia. Vince Mia, pardon me, yeah. Andy Yeah. Vince Um, she has been working with Killam for some time to try to make some movements on a property in Dartmouth- Andy Yes Vince ... which is, which is really, really interesting as a, as a strategy. And correct me if my understanding of it is wrong, but the land is federally or is it provincial? Andy Uh, the land is provincially owned. Vince Okay. Andy There are federal dollars in the program, though. Vince Okay. Andy Yeah. Vince And the... Okay. So the, the... one of the biggest hurdles is to have that land made available to a development of which Killam would build. Andy Yeah. Vince So the metrics of it would be that the land is no longer a part of the proforma that goes towards the development. So then you can build something where you've already reduced the overall cost by, I don't know, what is it? 5 million- Andy Yeah, something like that Vince ... for the, for the land. And then if you divide that cost amongst the, I don't know how many units, let's just say it's, uh, 100 or 80 units, right? Andy Yeah. Vince That's a significant reduction in the mortgage, which has an impact on the monthly, uh, rental rates, right? Andy It, it does. Vince It's- Andy And, and so does, uh, the YWCA's, uh, tax advantage that then Killam gets to employ- Vince Yeah Andy ... in the construction of the building- Vince Exactly Andy ... itself. So you layer on these savings. You know, the land is, is a, is the contribution of the provincial government. There are federal dollars at work. Um, there is the tax advantage at work. And all of those things together, uh, help to bring down the, uh, bring down the cost. It's a great m- it's a great marriage. I love what they're doing. Vince Yeah. And I know that they've been talking about it for quite some time now. Um, so if, if we all agree that there is a housing crisis, why doesn't it just happen? Like why can't this building start construction? Like what is preventing the province from supporting it to the way that they need to as well as everybody else involved like- Andy It's, uh, it's fascinating you ask about that particular site because it's been on my... I, I have a list in my office of all the things I need to, I need briefings on, like stat- sit-reps on. Like why, why, why? Vince Right. Andy And that's on my list. Like, why isn't it going? But I, I will say, every time I talk to Mia, she's optimistic. She said, "No, it's, it's all happening. Just, you know... It's coming, be patient." And so she's projecting optimism and- Vince Sure, yeah Andy ... about it. So I, I, I... She's so smart I have to believe her. Vince Yeah she is. Yeah. Andy Yeah. Um, she's doing great work. So... But, uh, you know, that kind of brings me back, you know, maybe to not, not particularly that site but in general, like there's a crisis, we have these opportunities, why aren't we moving faster? Um, I, I... It brings me back to our governance structure and some of the, um, some of the, you know... Large institutions have a personality. They have a, they have a, a, um, a institutional memory of how to work- Vince There's a culture. Andy A culture. There's a culture. Thank you. That's the word I'm looking for. There's a culture. And the culture, you know, any builder will tell you that, uh, it's so much easier to build in Moncton than it is in Halifax. That there's a culture of no. Like- Vince Yeah Andy ... we, uh, the s- the organization leads with no, and then, and then the next thing is convince me that we should approve this, you know? It should be, "Thanks for coming in, let's build something great together." You know, "I, I love your project. You're gonna build some homes? Good. Sit down right here, we're gonna figure this out." Vince Mm-hmm. Andy Um, and that's the, that's the culture change that I, uh, want to bring to our city in a, in a really, uh- Vince Yeah Andy ... abrupt way. Vince Yeah. I, I can, um... I believe in you, right? But I- Andy [laughs] Vince ... I really think that, uh- Andy Thank you Vince ... you are the, the right person for this job, just given your, your background, uh, knowledge in planning, history in, in changing policy. And, and I know that you're not strong-arm mayor here. Like I know that this isn't just your, your role but it, it has to start from a voice of optimism for change and, and really, you know, seeing something that can be made better than what we're dealing with. And I, I, I do love Halifax, uh, but the, the culture of no is, um, is toxic. I feel it a lot- Andy Yeah Vince ... especially when we want to do something different- Andy Yeah Vince ... and when we're pushing the needle. Like we... The... As an example we're working on a development, um, and I, I don't wanna throw anybody under the bus here but it's a... One length of the building is just under 200 feet, and so it's a long building and there are articulation to it and it's next to a, a slope-... on the, on the street. So as you can imagine, the ground floor is at the point where the street is highest- Andy Mm-hmm Vince ... and as the road goes down, that ground floor continues at one plane- Andy Right Vince ... so there's a bigger distance between the low end of the site. And this is intended to be an affordable housing development. The distance between the street and the elevation of the ground floor is off by five and a half inches from what is allowed by policy. Because you're not allowed a certain distance from the street to the ground floor, right? There's all kinds of little nuances here, but just to prevent any listeners from feeling bored about this- Andy [laughs] Vince ... it's five and a half inches off. And the city, and I, I thank them for this, they said, "We will do what we can to move this ahead," right? Because in an affordable housing environment, the only solution to do this is to spend more money to solve that- Andy Yeah Vince ... difference. Andy Yeah. Vince Right? That means to actually check the slab so you actually have a concrete slab which changes elevation so that it can be five and a half inches. Now, the unit that it would be affected is a barrier-free unit with a five-inch drop, so that means that you'd have to have ramps inside the unit. And it, it, it creates such- Andy It compounds. Vince ... a complete- Andy Yeah Vince ... mess. Andy Yeah. Vince And it's just so frustrating because it's been held up in the, you know... I didn't get you here to complain about this. Andy No. Vince [laughs] I don't wanna give you that sense- Andy I, I wanna... These are the things I wanna know about- Vince But it's just- Andy ... so this is good. Vince It's just a really good example of what needs to happen. Like, conversations need to happen, and l- and decision-making power needs to be given to those within the planning department so that people who know that this is not worth fighting for can say, "You know what? This is in the grounds of reasonable and we can actually send it to you in writing that, you know what? Five and a half inches, that's, that's close enough," which is what they say, but they can't put it in writing. Andy Yeah. Vince Right? And again, they're doing their job, but if everybody just does their job, we're not gonna move anything in the right direction. That know culture has to change. We have to be in a space where people are like, "Man, five and a half inches, but now you're gonna be moving people from this old building stock to this brand new, beautiful building? That is worth it." And we can turn our eyes the other direction. Andy So you've joined the, the hunt for that mythical beast called the Common Sense Variance. Vince Right [laughs]. Andy That, that, that sh- that sh- that sh- we've... I keep on wanting to think that it exists somewhere in the world, but it doesn't exist in Halifax right now. And your story is, is one of a th- I was gonna say a hundred. It's one of a thousand stories. Vince Oh, imagine. Andy They're definitely... You know, we, we talked about institutional, uh, culture, and one of the, one of the elements of the culture in our city is, uh, risk aversion rather than risk management. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Andy Risk management can be very creative and you can, you can solve all kinds of problems, but if you're averse to risk in the way you just described, that's, that's a result of risk aversion- Vince Yeah Andy ... um, then you're really hobbling innovation and you're slowing things down. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Andy So I, I, I want us- Vince Yeah. Andy Uh, it's another thing on my list is to move us into risk management and past risk aversion. Vince Yeah. I, I, I think that that's such a great way to, to think about our city and, um, changing policies, uh, risk management. Like, we don't have enough of an entrepreneurial perspective. Andy Yeah. Vince Again, I, you know, I keep talking about our, um, neighbors that are to the south of us that are... we're, we're having some conflict with, but with all respect to them, they have so much entrepreneurial massive risk-taking ventures. Andy Yeah. Vince And that is what's, you know, they, they're having all kinds of problems as a result of some of that, but I think that we need to adopt some of that. We need to have- Andy Absolutely Vince ... some motivation to take risks, to know that the risk is for a better future. The risk isn't just for the benefit of a small group of developers or a- Andy Right Vince ... small number of people. It's for the benefit of the whole city, and- Andy Yeah Vince ... because that one risk taken, if shown success, which is the inherent in the risk, sometimes it might not work, it, it snowballs into- Andy It snowballs, yeah Vince ... and to others taking the same risk, right? And we've seen that time and time again, even in our city, right? If you look at, um, the Stillwell group, for example? Andy Yeah. Vince They were the first to put the beer garden on the waterfront, and that then changed into others doing the same thing. And, uh, it was really the beginning of... I don't think they get enough credit for it, but it was really the beginning of a lot of positive change on the waterfront that we saw, and they took a risk. Andy They did. Vince They took a huge risk. Andy They were, they were pioneers. W- that's, that was in the timeframe that I was VP of Planning and Development at the Waterfront. Vince Right. Andy And w- we, uh, we were changing the nature of the usage of the Waterfront at that time- Vince Right Andy ... creating what became the Saltyard and all that. Vince Right. Yeah. Andy But they were the, they were really the guinea pigs. They, they were out there first. They f- had to go through the battles with, uh, the health department on cooking food, uh, next to the ocean. Uh, the, the- Vince Right Andy ... plumbing... inspectors- Vince Yeah Andy ... with, "How are you gonna get a bathroom going?" Vince Yeah. Andy Um, I- i- the fire marshal. Like, it went on and on and on. Vince Yeah. Andy And they just s- they showed up every day, and, and there were, there were staffers at Waterfront Development that showed up every day with them and we finally got it done, and they, they, uh, I just credit them. They stuck with it. Vince Yeah. Andy And they also figured out how to use the vacant lot on Spring Garden Road, which was- Vince Yeah. Yeah Andy ... which was great. Vince Super creative group. Andy Yeah. Vince Yeah. Well, I don't wanna take, um, any more of your time. Uh, for those that don't know this, that we are on a Friday end of day and it's a happy hour somewhere, right? Andy [laughs] Vince So I think we need to go [laughs] somewhere else and... Um, you know, just maybe a, a closing question or two. Wh- wha- what city holds you captive with- in awe, and y- has an image of streets and places and people that you think... Maybe there's one or two cities or whatever- Andy Yeah, yeah Vince ... but you think, "Man, if, if Halifax could adopt some of this..."Uh, what- what place is that? Andy Yeah. Well, I- I will say off the top, I- I love the, um... Savannah is an amazing city, you know? It, uh- Vince Mm Andy ... its- its network of public squares and, uh, generous sidewalks and tree-lined streets, I think, is just absolutely beautiful. Chicago, uh, is an- is another amazing city. The conversion of the- of the lakefront in Chicago from a rail yard to Millennium Park with- with, uh, public art and, uh, performance space and cultural expression, just- just remarkable, you know? A real commitment to- to building the quality of- of space, of place. Copenhagen, Malmo, Stockholm, really getting it right, uh, with- with urbanism. Um- Vince Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Andy Lots to learn there as well. So, uh, there- there's no shortage of good ideas out there. Uh, we just... I, you know, I just want to land them here in a more, uh, productive and immediate way. Um, and that's gonna involve, uh, modifying the policy landscape to be able to say yes to these good ideas. Vince Yeah. Yeah. Well, um, thank you again. I think, um, uh, being an urban planner, I think, is naturally a position of patience. Andy Yeah [laughs]. Vince You know, I don't think I know a planner that's expecting to see change overnight. Uh, and I think that's the same for what is required in the role as a mayor, so, um... Andy The work can move at a geologic pace sometimes. I- I- Vince Yeah Andy ... I wrote the first RFP for the Cogswell Interchange project in tw- 2005. And, uh- Vince Is that right? Andy ... we hope to finish the project this year [laughs]. Vince Yeah, yeah, yeah. Andy 20 years later. Vince If we're lucky. Yeah. Yeah. Andy Yeah. So that's the geologic pace you're talking about. Vince Yeah. All right. Well, thank you very much for coming in. And, um, it's been a pleasure talking to you. And we'll chat again soon Andy Thanks, Vincent. I look forward to it. Vince Okay. Andy And, uh, and thanks for the opportunity. Vince Yeah. Awesome. Andy Cheers. Breakhouse Thanks for listening to the Design Makes Everything Better Podcast by Breakhouse, a Canadian strategic design firm. A full transcript and show notes can be found at breakhouse.ca/podcast/1. Have feedback or ideas for the show? Drop us a line at [email protected].